Chris: I’d say for myself. I have two different schools of thought. One – I should listen to myself more. The second one, with influencer stuff out there, is stop listening to people, unless it’s specific advice. In general stop listening to people. Keep learning. Just like you with your exams. Just keep at it. Try to see how you can be different. How you can stand out. It’s too much of people going the same road, or a normalcy. Different opinions and perspectives can be refreshing.

Gritty: So the listening to yourself more. Expand on that. If you were trying to go for something, would it have changed things?

Chris: It depends on what it is. You can audition for a role and not get it, but then a number things could happen. That’s a loaded question.

Gritty: More pointedly, you were personally inspired by others doing shit?

Chris: Yes and no. I usually am not really inspired by other people. I don’t really like inspirations. I tend to get inspired by things I don’t like. If we’re talking specifically KLYAM, Illegally Blind/Bufu/Hassle/Fast Apple, people were doing it. And that’s a thing. There were a few specific moments.

—-Changing tapes to a Gritty choice (random out of a grab bag): Ursula / “Hair Salon” – in Chris’ top 50. Also, a Gritty favorite —-

Gritty: Alright, so we’re listening to Ursula – quick transition. What do you remember and for people that weren’t there, what’s to note?

Chris: With the Pelvic Floor and Cambridge Community Center, they’d be superstars. I don’t care if I sound like a jackass but Ursula’s sound is much cooler. Certainly a lot of bands are influenced by No Wave today. I think Ursula would give extra umph in that direction. Maybe it wouldn’t be as much emo influence or other influences. Musically, they’re almost inept, amateur, but in a good way. Bare-boned. It’s not noise or outsider, either. There’s a little bit of a void of that. These songs are really fucking tight. These are clear ideas of what they’re going for lyrically, musically, aesthetically. Not only in their music, but when you saw them live it was a real attack. There are other bands like this, but not as sharp. In a lot of ways, them and bands like Birthing Hips paved the way to the current not just male dominated, same kind of sound. I feel definitely a big influence on Gritty. Even compared to the No Wave shit (if someone wants to point me in the right direction) – I like some of those bands, but Ursula doesn’t remind me of anything else. They paired well with Pucker Up. They went on at least one tour together. Another band that had their own sound, almost anti-everything.

Gritty: So Ursula was a bit of an outlier at that time?

Chris: Yes and no. There was a Black Lodge show. Girlpool. I didn’t listen to them much, but they played at Black Lodge. Girlpool, Miami Doritos, Saralee, and Ursula. Saralee is weird, but they were the most accessible. Miami Doritos were pretty weird, but a little more conventional. Ursula, a little more crazier and less rock driven. To pivot from Ursula, talking about Nice Guys – it’s kind of like what we were doing with Rama. If you look at one of the nights of the Rama Lama Ding Dong: Guerilla Toss, Ursula, Barbazons, Fooodmasters, Beware the Dangers of a Ghost Scorpion, Electric Street Queens. We were trying to do shit like that – not a typical bill. Nice Guys played the night before. That Rama we tried really hard.

—–We are happily interrupted during the oral history from a call by Brian, our longtime friend, drummer of Johnnie and the Foodmasters, and guitarist/saxophonist of Gritty, and mastermind behind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ——-

Gritty: What did the Black Lodge mean to you?

Chris: It meant a lot to me. I did an oral history on it, so refer to that.

Gritty: What did Lowell Massachusetts underground mean to you?

Chris: It was the first introduction on a personal level to an underground music scene. It was weird because I didn’t have any ambitions, but just stumbled across it. Mainly Jimmy Ford and Justin Cole introduced me to Lowell house shows.

Gritty: Were you aware of the broader underground connectivity?

Chris: Not a lot. I heard of the Whitehaus. I knew of the concept. But not really, no.

Gritty: What was the difference: Lowell underground and Boston underground?

Chris: I wasn’t too privy to Boston underground. Lowell was a lot smaller. A smaller scene, smaller community. But at the same time, a lot of Boston bands and touring bands came through. Like Fat History Month. New Highway Hymnal. Frank Hurricane. Guerilla Toss. Big Mess – a steady Lowell band. They brought a lot of people in. Houses, cool places to play. I wasn’t as in touch with 119 and Unchartered.

Gritty: What about the On Broadway Fest?

Chris: 2008. And the one before that was 2009. 2008 was in 2012 and 2009 was in 2011. That was very awesome. It kind of shows the spirit of that era. There were Facebook event pages, but this shows what it was. You had bands like Guerilla Toss or Frank Hurricane. It was just houses. Of course. Two houses having bands play. People are going to come out. They fucking started at noon. Crinkle Face and Inspector 34. It occurred to me 14 years later that Inspector 34 is a Pete & Pete reference.

——Gritty randomly grabs a Maine Coons tape. Another of Chris’ Top 50. Surprising to most people – he thinks ——–

Gritty: Did you appreciate at the time being in close proximity to all this…during college?

Chris: Not enough. But yeah. I never took it for granted. I remember thinking when people look back at shit, in history books. That’s how I felt. I’ll be looking back. Literally what we’re doing now is what I envisioned would happen. At the time it seemed pretty cool. I wasn’t around as many heads that were saving flyers for Minor Threat shows. Some people do that. At that time, thinking that far ahead, we couldn’t really conceptualize what it would feel like 15 years, 5 years, whatever. It’s like asking a married couple – everyone says their I Do’s – if they mean in it 100% in that moment, you can’t really conceptualize what it will be like 20, 30, 50 years later. So this is a weird thing, you are asking me what I was thinking of back then. It’s all good though.

Gritty: Okay let’s talk about the lightning in a bottle situation from back then.

Chris: Let me say one thing. I can’t imagine ever having to deal with being famous. That’s a huge stress. Same thing with being rich. At the same time, it’s one of those things – isn’t everyone kind of curious what they’d do in that scenario? How would you act? I think the reason why people don’t question that is they might become that shithead they hate. I’m not saying that to sympathize with those people. When I see normal people not able to deal with shit, I can’t imagine being famous. I see the Lou Reed interviews and it’s like I don’t know, if you aren’t that popular… Popularity is going to blow your ego out of control. Dave Grohl felt really uncomfortable with people asking about Kurt Cobain dying. Singer commits suicide at 27. With Ben (Tan) passing, I don’t have that. I did have people come up to me and I had no problem talking about it. Enjoy the moment and try to be positive. So, what about the ole lightning in a bottle?

Gritty: The feeling from those early show going days.

Chris: It’s so hard to describe. That’s one thing with maturity. I think for a long time and a small extent now – fuck mainstream music fans, fuck pop. A lot of people save up their paychecks to see Taylor Swift, Sabrina Carpenter. They are obsessed with it. It means the world to them. A lot of us into underground or local scenes – you get that who cares attitude. I remember going to Gay Gardens ‘you remember that Saralee / Fat History Month show’? For us that was a specific time. The passion basically. You’re passionate about something. When we were first getting into stuff, Black Lips, whoever it was, it is hard to duplicate that. The movie Detroit Rock City encapsulates that ‘I have to see this band’. There was this excitement like Christmas morning or the end of school.

Gritty: Going to shows was a big deal every time for a while.

Chris: For the most part, yeah.

Gritty: We weren’t really jaded.

Chris: No. Cynicism and jaded are too different things. What do you think?

Gritty: Everything was so new and adventurous.

Chris: In some ways, that’s how things are now, too. It’s a way to rewire the brain. You can’t force it. That’s a constant thing – we don’t look around and smell the roses.

Gritty: Is the 4 year or the Boston…

Chris: Wait a sec. This has been amazing. Kids Like You and Me has been amazing. Everything is amazing in nostalgia. The reality is, in my experience, is that’s ’cause that’s what we are talking about right now. I’m not talking about how depressed I was or how much I hated my jobs. And that’s what made those moments so exciting. I was listening to my favorite band. And I can see them live. Live comes in different cycles. On one hand I’m seeing a ton of my favorite bands but maybe I don’t need KO Queen now the way I needed Black Lips in 2009. I’m also older now. So many factors. I’m glad I have the memories and nostalgia. It’s real and I love it.

Gritty: You were in love with these times?

Chris: In some ways yes. I’m not trying to romanticize the past. That was a certain point in time. It’s not taking everything into consideration. I’m in love with these times but also working at Stop and Shop which sucked. That’s a part of it.

Gritty: Now that you’re older and wiser maybe, do you sympathize with the older heads cynicism of that ‘I’m in love with these times’?

Chris: I think there’s always data that can support something. Ultimately, you’re always too old or too young for something. It’s like a see-saw. We have lost a lot of stuff in general in culture. Unfortunately, it takes time to notice some things. You don’t just suddenly see the effects of a band like Ursula or bands like that. It percolates. It’s not like overnight there’s no more misogyny in music. You see shifts in more stuff over time. Shitty things always still exist so it makes it feel like progress isn’t being made. It’s hard to notice ’cause there is still shitty shit. If you don’t have people pushing back, it’s always going to be worse.

—-Chris puts on what he described as something only he has heard: a personal Tunnel of Love tape —–

Chris: I honestly don’t know any one that sounds like them.